[FUN] Div 2 Local Indicator

[Stephen Mitschke]

The other option is the SMAR FFB to mA converter with indicator but this isalso an overkill, all I need is a dumb, cheap local FFB indicator rated fordiv 2 area.Best RegardsDeon F. Rae-----Original Message-----Have you talked to Yokogawa? They make a FF H1 digital recorder, theDAQStation. I am not sure about its area classification, though with theproper enclosure or purge is should work.The other option is to use an indicating transmitter and have itconfigured to show the AI you wish, even if it is from another device onthe network.Would you like me to pose this question to the FUN list as well?Ian-----Original Message-----Ian, Does anyone know where I can purchase fieldbus local indicators ? Thelocal indicators will be used to display a process value at the controlvalve station, typically mounted outside in a Div 2 area. Anyrecommendations or best practices we should follow when selecting andinstalling local fieldbus indicators ?If fieldbus local indicators are not available what does other users doto address this operations requirement ?-------------------------------------- Deon F. RaeChevronTexaco, ERTC, Process Automation

[Stephen Mitschke]

IanRosemount has a 751s remote indicator for Foundation Fieldbus.Trevor MacDougallTechnical SpecialistSpartan Controls

[Stephen Mitschke]

Several replies in one posting.Ian-----Original Message-----We are biding our time . . . When our installation was originally designed, we hard-wired localindicators with 4-20 mA outputs from the house. This was cheaper than buyingthe FF to mA appliances available at the time, and figuring out how to get24V power to them, etc.There are some transmitters being offered, or soon to be offered, withremote-mount electronics. Integral indicators never made a lot of sense tous - in our colder climate, we put instruments in heated enclosures anyhow,and the mounting position of the measurement was frequently not where wewanted a local indicator (e.g., at a control valve bypass station). But withremote-mount electronics, we can (in theory) put the indication where wewant it. So we save a device and we save on enclosures too.To me the ultimate solution is perhaps some flavor of (secure) wirelessEthernet, with little pocket-PC versions of our MMI running in handhelddevices. Designers need to bear in mind the typical way such an interfacemight be used . . . emphasis on data as opposed to graphics,sunlight-visible display, configurable for some finite subset of data on aper-use basis (so I don't need to license it for all 2000 or 20000tags-at-once), and certified for use in hazardous (NEC Class 1 div 2 forexample) areas. Then, my detailed design consultant and I are forever freedfrom having to piddle around with local indicators (I hope).John RezabekBP BDO Manufacturing----- post 2 -----If you have any devices that are SMAR, they can be configured to displayalmost any variable on a segment. We have used a SMAR temperaturetransmitter's display to show a valve position, a level PV and othervariables just for fun. The transmitter can show as many as eightvariables, but only the first parameter shows up automatically. Theremaining seven variables may be looked at by using a mechanical stepthrough process that is a little cumbersome, but at least does get youthere. I have not found any other devices other than the DAQ that will dowhat you ask. On the other hand, a laptop could be used with theappropriate configuration software or you might want to wait a while untilsomeone comes up with a PDA or similar communication device that willprovide such info. If you have several PV's, etc. to display the DAQ may beyour best bet. I have been trying to get my hands on one to evaluate(costs, functionality, facility...)for that purpose, so I know you are notthe only one with this question. Sounds like a good opportunity for anequipment designer/entrepreneur. Chuck Carter Lee College----- post 3 -----Deon,No one currently makes an FF remote Div 2 indicator. The DAQStation isnot Div 2 qualified (although I have talked to them about getting it Div2 certified), yet anyway. Unless the indicator is made by the valvemanufacturer (remote display or digital readout on the valve feedinginfo from the FF board), the remote indicator would need to be an activedevice on the FF segment for precise info. It would be cool to build onethough...-Kurt Zech, FF--- post 4 ----I have also asked this question about remote displays, though for tank radar/ level indication. I was not satisfied with the "use a temperature gauge" answer, but that isall I got. it would seem the FFB electronics are so expensive that the cost of thetemperature part is insignificant. It is a pity, because in Profibus all this sort of remote display technologyappears to be readily available. Russell Mackenzie

[Stephen Mitschke]

Sorry about the confusion yesterday folks, problems with e-mail at this end.Ian-----Original Message-----It is possible to use a Smar current converter or temperature transmitterfor the local display of values from any other Fieldbus device. Display isdone on the device itself which is bus powered, so no auxiliary 24 VDC isrequired. Also keep in mind, that if you would like to display thetransmitter value on the positioner display, this is also possible.This solution has been used in many installations, and it is intrinsicallysafe and explosion proof. Some users feel it is a shame that much of thefunctionality of the device goes unused - because the I/O function is notused, just the display. However, developing a Fieldbus display that isexplosion proof may not be very much cheaper to manufacture than atransmitter/converter.Question for the list: would you be interested in a dedicated remoteFieldbus indicator product even if you had to pay the same price as for acurrent converter or temperature transmitter?Remote-mount electronics or display has been available for many years,particularly for magnetic flow, but is appearing on other transmitter types.However, it is always a solution that only works for a specific device type,there is no interoperability so the display does not work for other devices.What is needed is a solution that is interoperable so it can be used withdevices of any type from any manufacturer. If all devices can use the sameindicator, then swapping them around when spares are required is no issue -this is why we want interoperability provided by Fieldbus. Moreover, thesame transmitter is used everywhere regardless if local or remote display isrequired. The remote display should be intrinsically safe so it can be usednot only in Div 2 but also in Div 1. Rather than using a proprietary scheme,FOUNDATION(tm) Fieldbus is ideal for this task. I think the last thing weneed is another round of proprietary buses to connect the displays with thesensors where every manufacturer does it their own way. Let's not forget whywe don't want proprietary solutions.Jonas Berge

[Stephen Mitschke]

Ian,We will be releasing in April a Class 1, DIV 1 Indicator. The 752 - FieldbusRemote Indicator, that can display up to eight variables, one at time, withTAG, VALUE and Engineering Units. The 752 can display any linkable variablein the segment. The device has backup LAS and several function blocks. The Pressure transmitters can also display up to four variables.Regards,Marcos PelusoEmerson Process Management-----Original Message-----SMAR also has a FI302. It's a Fieldbus to current converter. It has 3,4-20 madc outputs and can display one of the outputs. It's overkill ifall your using is the display. I just talked to Rosemont, and they saidtheir Fieldbus process indicator (751s) is not presently available andstill being developed.Paul F. Anderson, P.E.ChevronTexaco ---- original message ----I got a note back from my Rosemount salesman confirming the rumor I hadheard about their field indicator. He called it a 752 instead of a 751.Displays up to 8 parameters with tag name and engineering units. Has abunch of other neat features. Release in May. I don't know why Rosemounthasn't responded to the note unless they aren't ready to announce productspecs yet.Herman StoreyShell Global Solutions

[Stephen Mitschke]

Answer to the question:No. Why pay more for slightly less versatility?However, If the display had the added functionality of in input in the form of a button or two, then it would be worth the same price.This would allow switching between what was displayed, easily, or even remote stop-start.for example, I have 6 tanks with radars, and one remote display at the tanks manifold, so that I select the tank being currently filled or emptied. well worth it then.Of course it would need to be intrinsically safe.Russell MackenzieTerminal Manager - EngineeringCoogee Chemicals